Are Bills Too Big?
Legislation length is cause for debateBy JOSELYN KING
Article Photos
WHEELING - Policies concerning climate change, taxes and health care often can't be summarized in a few words. Actually, members of Congress find it often takes more than a 1,000 pages to do this.
"Mega-bills," thousand-page pieces of legislation, are nothing new to the U.S. House and Senate. Their constituents, meanwhile, wonder whether their representatives can thoroughly examine the proposed laws on which they are voting.
U.S. Rep. Alan Mollohan, D-W.Va., said lawmakers do not have to read every word of legislation to know how it affects a district. He noted they probably were involved with the pro-cess of crafting the bill and that they already have participated in what is likely its lengthy debate.
But on the other side of the aisle, U.S. Rep. Shelly Moore Capito questions whether too many voluminous and complex changes are made to legislation just hours before the vote.
"We've seen the speaker and her team present us with thousand-page bills that aren't even finalized until hours before we're expected to vote on the bill," she said. "From the $700 billion financial bailout to the $787 billion stimulus and cap and trade - these were enormous pieces of legislation that deserved much more review and closer consideration.
"We had 300 new pages dropped into the "cap-and-trade" bill at 3 a.m. on the day of the vote. And with the last-minute changes made to round up votes, we're still learning what all was included. That sets dangerous precedent, and it's not the way we should be handling legislation."
Capito fears health care legislation presently being debated in Congress could be destined to the same fate, with a discussion draft on the issue "now approaching 900 pages," she said.
Numerous bills regarding health care reform ultimately will be folded into one piece of legislation.
"When you combine subcommittee bills or have tax bills, you are dealing with bills that run into thousands of pages," Mollohan said. "There's nothing new about that, at least in the last century - ever since we've had tax legislation."
Mollohan, who has been in office since 1982, remembers that the Clean Air Act of 1990 consisted of "thousands of pages."
"It is also not unusual for members of Congress to stand on the floor when they oppose legislation, and instead of talking about it substantively, attack it for being a large piece of legislation," he said. "The point is that every member who votes on legislation knows what the impact of the bill will be and whether it is desirable for their constituents. That's what's important."
Mollohan is himself a lawyer, and he noted that many in Congress are not. He suspects many of his colleagues read the legislation in terms of legalese, and that the "syntax might confuse them."
"But what they are not confused about is how it impacts their constituency," he continued. "It's a superficial attack on legislation to stand up and say it's a thousand pages long. So what."
He noted that legislation is debated and that many members are involved in the process of crafting it.
"If they don't know what is in bill, then they haven't been paying attention," he said. "Our understanding is not dependent on reading the bill. The thick pieces of legislation are, ironically, the ones understood most.
"To say the bill is too large and hasn't been read is usually flannel-mouth rhetoric," he added. "If a member of Congress doesn't know what the impact of legislation is going to be on their constituency, then they have been in the hospital for the last three months."
|
JamesT
|
|
|---|---|
|
07-22-09 10:08 AM
|
Interesting how a smooth talking attorney from ultra corrupt Cook County/Chicago broke most promises from the general election to the inaugruration. Transparancy? Hidden meetings,sealed documents,special interest ect..! How about fiscal responsibility like Pork? Obama signed a 6,000 earmark ( pork ) after lying in the campaign. Tax crooks running the treasury/IRS. Not reading bills before voting on and now the Health Bill being rushed so Americans can't see it? We get the government we deserve and when your personal income tax is like Europe's, at 70% and higher, I'll say " I told ya so"!! 23 Trilion and counting... welcome to The Socilist States Of America! Where will the Canadiens go for life saving treatments? The sleazy lawyers will still sue doctors even though the government tells the doctors who,what,where for less money and millions more patients. Notice the states with the worst problems are controlled by the Democrats? High taxes,over regulated and bloated bueracra
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-21-09 8:08 PM
|
Man, the crickets are loud!
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-21-09 11:00 AM
|
GoldenArm - I'm really not surprised that, while you can throw around words like "loons", "crap" and "partisan BS", you fail to respond to clearly stated concerns. Enemies of the US are very definitely taking notice of the fact that there are challenges to ObaMao's legitimacy at the highest ranks of our military officers and that those challenges are going unanswered. That is a very serious national security concern which must be dealt with one way or another. Either court martial those who refuse his orders or make the records clear and available.
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-21-09 9:59 AM
|
GoldenArm - By the way, the question is not whether he's an "illegal citizen" - although I have no idea what the definition of that would be - no, the question is whether he's a "natural born citizen" under the Constitutionally-prescribed eligibility requirements. Those are very different issues.
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-21-09 9:55 AM
|
GoldenArm - I hadn't paid much attention to the issue until it came out that military officers were refusing orders based on the question. The response to one such refusal by a Lt. Col. (which is no small rank) was to rescind and cancel his orders. The legitimate and appropriate response would have been a court martial or some other serious disciplinary action, but that would have opened the matter to review under that military court and in accord with the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. A commissioned officer in our military is generally very well educated and does not take such an action except for the most serious of reasons. As Commander-In-Chief, the president NEEDED to address this matter decisively. Instead, he backed down and avoided it. That failure on his part did, indeed, raise the level of credibility on this matter for me because the refusal of military officers to follow orders for legitimate cause is a very dangerous situation for all of us. It's unprecedente
|
|
Thebudman
|
|
|
07-21-09 9:25 AM
|
Just produce the the long form and put this all to rest. What's the problem?
|
|
GoldenArm
|
|
|
07-21-09 9:19 AM
|
At least one good thing will come out of all this "birther" crap. The sane people will be able to identify the loons with much more ease now.
|
|
steelercrazy
|
|
|
07-21-09 9:10 AM
|
GoldenArm, are you a closet 9/11 conspiracy goof??? The two cases are very similar: extremely little proof that 9/11 was an inside job, and extremely little proof that President Obama is an American citizen.
|
|
GoldenArm
|
|
|
07-21-09 8:52 AM
|
You know, Gray, I find it discouraging that you have fallen into the "birther" camp. I'm usually at loggerheads with you over most things, but I had respect for your opinions. Because they were your own. But now, with all this "birther" crap, I don't know. IMO it's more believable that 9/11 was an inside job, then the President being an illegal citizen. There are plenty of things to critique the President about, but this "birther" crap is pure partisan BS.
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-21-09 8:31 AM
|
GoldenArm - Several previous posts had opened the topic of ObaMao's ineligilibility for office. I can't possibly know what was "deleted".
|
|
GoldenArm
|
|
|
07-20-09 11:59 PM
|
Always looking for a way to comment on Obama, eh Gray. Predictable and just a little bit pathetic. Actually, I'm talking about how any post I make towards Ellis is somehow magically deleted.
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-20-09 11:04 PM
|
GoldenArm - "Snitch"? Presenting the questionable matters concerning ObaMao's legitimate eligibility is "snitching"? The stories are becoming increasingly more numerous and if, as I suspect they will, more military officers challenge him, a very large pile is going to hit a very powerful fan. Military officers don't take this at all as business as usual. Believe me on that. If the military won't take orders, he isn't "Commander-In-Chief" and will have to go.
|
|
GoldenArm
|
|
|
07-20-09 10:55 PM
|
BTW, Ellis, quit being a whiny little snitch!
|
|
GoldenArm
|
|
|
07-20-09 10:53 PM
|
BIRTHER ALERT!!!!
|
|
1whoworks
|
|
|
07-20-09 10:50 PM
|
Nooo, bills aren't too big! Why should our representative actually know what he is voting on. I'm sure whoever wrote the bill knows just what is best for this district. One might think our congressman inherited the seat from his father. Oh yea. He did!!!
|
|
EllisWyatt
|
|
|
07-20-09 9:17 PM
|
No original long-form certification of live birth. No passport records. Records have been cleaned up. Selective Service info released by Obama was counterfeit. No Occidental College records. No Columbia College records. ALSO, under the British Nationality Act of 1948, the offspring of a British citizen were considered to be a British citizen also, even if they were born in the US. Thus, Obama is, at a minimum, a dual citizen. Why would Obama have spent nearly $1 million to fight lawsuits in 12 states blocking the release of his records? Records at Noelani Elementary in Hawaii are absent for Obama. Every other child in his kindergarten class (Ms. Sakai) has records. Kindergarten records would have to show a real birth certificate, parent names, his legal name, DOB, place of birth, vaccination records, etc. None of this is to be found.
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-20-09 8:53 PM
|
I don't intend to abide by any of the "laws" or statutory regulations either passed by this congress or signed by ObaMao. Military officers who are educated and know the consequences to them of going into combat situations without valid and legitimate orders will likely be the ones to bring this fraud down. It can't happen soon enough. Maybe he can go move in with Hugo Chavez.
|
|
Thebudman
|
|
|
07-20-09 8:13 PM
|
The only mistakes the Republicans made was, after the 2004 George W. Bush's landslide victory over Kerry, the Republicans spent money like Democrats and they didn't build the fence as directed. Also, the Evangelicals stayed away from McCain in 2008. It will be different in 2012 if they go back to being conservatives and not be like liberal, whining, democrats. As it stands now, Romney will beat him if he not removed from office beforehand. Everything BO is signing into law now is not binding because until he can show us the long form, he's not a natural born citizen of the US and can not be President.
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-20-09 7:39 PM
|
Ellis - The legitimacy of his presidency is going to come to a head with increasing refusals of military officers to obey orders unless he proves his eligibility under the Constitution to serve as Commander-In-Chief. It is coming. I guarantee it.
|
|
acmooregov
|
|
|
07-20-09 7:22 PM
|
Term limits are in the hands of the voters! SOOOOOOOOO Simple!!!!!
|
|
EllisWyatt
|
|
|
07-20-09 7:14 PM
|
Barry Hussein Obama was born in Kenya, to a Muslim father who was a British subject, and an American woman who was too young, under the laws of that time, to pass on her citizenship to him. His own paternal grandmother said she was in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born! He has yet to produce and unalterated, original long form birth certificate. There are actually quite a few documents from Barry Soetero that we have yet to see. More on that next-
|
|
beach1
|
|
|
07-20-09 7:07 PM
|
hey wv,i think mr. wakim is looking for you,you are a coward to mention his name and not let him know who you are.if you are going to call him names be a man and call him for a meet! a liberal girlie girl and yellw backed coward!
|
|
Graysongs
|
|
|
07-20-09 6:43 PM
|
Shark88 - They take the money at the point of a gun. They spend a bunch of it to buy more votes from the greedy rabble and they use the rest to buy a bigger gun to take more money with next time around. Until we take them all out, it's only going to go on like this and get worse.
|
|
beach1
|
|
|
07-20-09 6:39 PM
|
hey wv,president bush won,WON,WON, WON, wv in the last two elections,you and nancy quit your lying and spewing your vomit all over the blog,you just make all of us sick anybody as stupid as you appear to be should not even live in w.v.
|
|
Shark88
|
|
|
07-20-09 5:24 PM
|
You know how you can tell when a politician is lying? When they move their lips. The article says, "Mollohan is himself a lawyer and he noted that many in congress are not." The truth is that some lawyers are a big part of the problem in this country. Most politicians are lawyers and they also carve out laws that favor them and their field of work. It isn't any surprise that this nation is wallowing in frivolous lawsuits and their excessive unfunded mandates that cost all Americans billions a year. The lawyers have fixed the system in their favor thanks to those who keep electing them. Shortage of money? No, the problem is the lawyers and government have too much money. So much money they just can't figure out how to spend it all.
|